A Lifetime of Happiness

Buffy: Welcome to Hellmouth

January 27, 2021 Steve Bennet-Martin, Stephen Martin-Bennet Season 1 Episode 52
A Lifetime of Happiness
Buffy: Welcome to Hellmouth
Chapters
A Lifetime of Happiness
Buffy: Welcome to Hellmouth
Jan 27, 2021 Season 1 Episode 52
Steve Bennet-Martin, Stephen Martin-Bennet

The Steves discuss the first two episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, along with what's making them happy in pop culture right now.

Topics Discussed:

  • Logan Light Center- Energy Healing
  • Geologist Finds Cookie Monster In a Rock
  • WandaVision on Disney+
  • Last of Us Part 2 on PS4

Then we dive into our talk with Buffy, including:

  • Joss Whedon's inspiration behind Buffy
  • Buffy's Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest
  • Xander being Joss' stand-in
  • The Search for Willow
  • Jesse who?
  • The "fun part" of the Black Plague
  • Cordelia's Coolness Quiz
  • The size of Sunnydale
  • CGI vs Practical Effects
  • Why there is Vamp-Face and dusting
  • Phlebotenum- Whedon and Greenwalt's secret weapon
  • LGBT and BIPOC associations with Buffy
  • The History of Lucy Hanover, "The Civil War Slayer"

Follow us on Facebook today: https://www.facebook.com/happylifepod

Support the show (http://www.patreon.com/happylifepod)

Show Notes Transcript

The Steves discuss the first two episodes of Buffy the Vampire Slayer, along with what's making them happy in pop culture right now.

Topics Discussed:

  • Logan Light Center- Energy Healing
  • Geologist Finds Cookie Monster In a Rock
  • WandaVision on Disney+
  • Last of Us Part 2 on PS4

Then we dive into our talk with Buffy, including:

  • Joss Whedon's inspiration behind Buffy
  • Buffy's Welcome to the Hellmouth and The Harvest
  • Xander being Joss' stand-in
  • The Search for Willow
  • Jesse who?
  • The "fun part" of the Black Plague
  • Cordelia's Coolness Quiz
  • The size of Sunnydale
  • CGI vs Practical Effects
  • Why there is Vamp-Face and dusting
  • Phlebotenum- Whedon and Greenwalt's secret weapon
  • LGBT and BIPOC associations with Buffy
  • The History of Lucy Hanover, "The Civil War Slayer"

Follow us on Facebook today: https://www.facebook.com/happylifepod

Support the show (http://www.patreon.com/happylifepod)

Steve:

Hello returning happies and new listeners. This is Steve Bennet-Martin,

Stephen:

and this is Stephen martin-Bennet.

Steve:

And welcome to a lifetime of happiness. The podcast where we take you on our journey through some of the movies, television shows, and other bits of pop culture that are helping keep us happy while hopefully bring a smile to your face alone. And

Stephen:

today we're discussing the pilot episodes of your favorite television show of all time, darling Buffy the vampire Slayer.

Steve:

Yes. And I can't wait for it, except that I can, because first my love what's making you happy. Well

Stephen:

this week, we did something a little different for our own personal happiness. We went to the Logan light center here in Sarasota and Charles Logan runs that, and it is a metaphysical healing center. And we both felt that we could use a little pick me up on our Aros and our mood and our overall wellbeing. And so we went and got, you know, an R a cleansing to get rid of negative energy and the cord cutting so that you can erase the negative connections that you have with people out in the world. And. I don't know about you, but I actually feel a lot better than before

Steve:

we went. I do as well. I mean, everyone who knows me, I'm always been very open about my struggles with depression and anxiety. And so in addition to the therapy and the Western medicine that I do use. It's also open. I'm always open to trying new experiences. This was certainly something new, but I, you know, you certainly, I felt it working as it was working in. I think you can probably see the differences in me possibly. Yeah. I don't know. I think so. Yes. And don't worry any while the cord cutting does kind of give you a sense software. He set, we spent some time this afternoon. Re-establishing our court just fine. Yes, sir.

Stephen:

We have some happy news to share. Tell us about

Steve:

that. Yeah. Yes. Another thing that makes us happy are Muppets. And one Muppet that everyone knows is cookie monster. And even though he's a vegan now or whatever, but no

Stephen:

he's vegan. He just Cookies or treats and he also enjoys it.

Steve:

Okay. Carrots? Yeah. Okay. Anyway, a geologist found cookie monster inside of rock.

Stephen:

Yes, honest to goodness. He got this rock open. And the only thing you can say that it looks like is cookie monster.

Steve:

Yes, it is an rock. He found it in Brazil. The lucky spur lunker was Mike Bowers from California. I think he's actually a geologist. That's bonkers sounds like fun. It's

Stephen:

GERD means that he would explore a cave. So some may not have had to do that

Steve:

to get there either way. It's it's interesting too, because on the outside, it's the perfect, like egg shaped rock that you wouldn't even the only reason why you would pick it up to begin with was because it's so perfectly egg shaped,

Stephen:

kind of like the. Dragon eggs and

Steve:

game of Thrones. Yeah. But when you crack it open, instead of being like a dragon, which would be even cooler, it was a cookie monster though. And even still that's so rare that he is he said over five betters right now, her and talks of paying over $10,000 for it because it's so perfect.

Stephen:

Look so cool. And we are going to share that on the post. Yeah, you

Steve:

can see it. Yes. We will certainly include that in one of the posts on our Facebook page this week, as well as our Twitter, Instagram. So be sure to make sure you're following us on those to check that out at happy life pod.

Stephen:

Yes. And we have been watching some fun things and playing some fun things. So let's talk about what we're bingeing in our life and what we're purging from our life.

Steve:

Yes, queen. And speaking up, I'll start off with a RuPaul's drag race. Season 13 in the us and UK has started now. So we're in double drag race season, double drag

Stephen:

race season, and it's fantastic. We come home Friday evenings, we order ramen from sandbar best. Oh my goodness. And then that evening we watch drag race UK season two, and then we watch RuPaul's drag race season

Steve:

on her 13th. Yes, I am team got mixed so far. Oh yeah. And team

Stephen:

Tina burner as well. I really enjoy. But over in the UK I'm team. Lawrence Cheney. Oh, I forgot about team Simone.

Steve:

Yes. Oh, and I love so much. I was struggling for her name, cause I almost wanted to call her Naomi, but I think that that's one of the Queens in the UK, because I mean, right now we have like 30 Queens and most floating around in our head right now between the two seasons. But I love both seasons right now. If you have basic cable, you have actors. Access to RuPaul season 13 right now through VH1. Yep. And you do need the wow presents plus app to get access to UK. But between having this new season, as it's coming out the first season to watch, if you didn't watch, it was also fabulous. That was I rewatched it even, and it was just brilliance the first season. So, and I think, I believe

Stephen:

it's less than $5 for a month with the wild presents plus, so you definitely get your money's

Steve:

worth. Yeah. And by many vomit he looks like a character, right. A Futurama. Yeah. So that's just interesting to see humans that look like, you know, the Simpsons type cartoon characters.

Stephen:

That's Oh my goodness. I hadn't put two and two together. You're absolutely right.

Steve:

Yeah. But yes, definitely binge all the way on both of them. And

Stephen:

we don't want, we would be neglectful to not mention WAM division on Disney plus.

Steve:

Yes. We love our Marvel and we love our Disney.

Stephen:

And so this is the first Marvel MCU thing since Avengers into game. And. The plot, we have zero idea where it's going. It's filmed. Like it's a sit-com from back in the day that you would find on TV land in black and white and film it, you know, it sounds like it's filmed in front of a studio audience. Yeah, it's fascinating. It stars Wanda, the Scarlet witch and vision, the robot from the MCU. Yes.

Steve:

And if you're watching it and you've watched all the MC movies, and you're wondering what the heck's going on you're supposed to, if you haven't watched it and you don't know, and you don't know what's going on, you're not alone. You're not like the minority.

Stephen:

So do you know the only person that figured it all out ahead of time? In the second episode, or it might've been the first episode that Deborah Jo re-upped from that 70 show guest starred as visions boss's wife. And I guess she had read the scripts and things and she talked to one of the producers and she had had it all figured out and they swore to secrecy. Oh

Steve:

really? Yeah. I'm interested to see how it all works out in the end. Then I'm hoping that that means that she's also like a big comic fan where like has nods. Cause I like that the theory that you had, where, and the call fields for all of you Buffy lovers is in it. Yes. And so you have the fan theory. You said that people were saying that she's clear. From the MCU

Stephen:

because the wan division is going to head straight into Dr. Strange in the multiverse of madness. So my theory and some of the theories that they're seeing online is that all of the witches in the Marvel universe are trapped inside this town. And. That Emma Caulfield is actually CLIA and it's all they're using. Wanda's reality. Warping powers. To keep everyone subdued.

Steve:

Interesting. I mean, that, that's a great theory right now, and I hope it's something along those lines because it's been interesting. I mean, the first episode, you don't even realize that it's has more of a bigger plot than it being kind of a sitcom. Cause the first episodes name is like live in front of a studio audience. And it's all about like work shenanigans of, you know, bringing the, what the, you know, the boss and his boss's wife home from dinner, like a, you know, good old sixties movie. And now they're moving up in the decades as it's going on. So yeah. When we're recording this, we've watched three episodes so far, but I'm very excited for more, yes.

Stephen:

Super excited for more. And you also play the game that you wanted to list as something people should be.

Steve:

Yes. I would love the last of us. Part two playing in on PlayStation four. Of course. If you haven't played the last of us, the first one, I definitely would recommend playing it. I do find it's a superior game overall as well, but if you played the first one and you loved it, it's definitely worth checking out the second one. I mean, the graphics are beautiful. There were some story beats that I really loved and I found were really just powerful, especially in terms of moving the genre of video games forward. I mean, starring, you know, Elliot page, you know, who was playing a lesbian character in a very lesbian romance. As the main, you know, one of the two main protagonists and then there was a trans character involved in the story and it was just all very powerfully done and, and great messages in that aspect. What I didn't personally love is the fact that it's like one entire revenge movie on both sides and both people are constantly trying to revenge each other. And I get revenge to like a point, like there was a point in the story where I was like, kind of on board, but until we're learning more about. The stuff that we didn't know, but the characters do know. So then it kind of calls into questioning their motives. Right. So you'll have to. Yeah. If you really love revenge movies and the revenge stuff, I mean, this is going to get you off, but, you know, it's, it took me that kind of took me out of it at certain points where by the end, I was like, it's fun with all the killing. Cause I mean the kind of the repetitive gameplay cycle of like, the supplies, make the things that you use then check, you know, kill the D you know, the humans and the spore effected creatures. You know, the gameplay loop was just very wonderful, but near the end, in terms of the story, I'm like, just let it end. It doesn't make sense. Then when it ended, I was like, Oh, yeah, but overall I would replay it again, but you know, definitely a binge, if you like the first one, if you were on the fence of the first one, I wouldn't, you know, start with the second one or jump to it right away though.

Stephen:

I watched it as you played it. And I thoroughly enjoyed watching it as

Steve:

like a movie. That's what I sent me. I enjoyed the entire experience. Overall. There was a story beats where I just was like, what is happening? Why would you do this? Why, why, why? You know, the, you know, Joel like her basically father standing by the end of that. The game, cause I'm sure many of our listeners might not play it, but spoiler alert, jump ahead. 30 seconds if you do, I plan on planning it, but I mean, you know, this one girl killed her dad because in the first game he killed everyone from the first game to save her. So, you know, in some reasons like he kind of had it coming cause he did kill like, you know, a billion people to save the one life. And it actually like saved. Her life over saving, you know, the entire world's from a cure. So yeah, if someone put a bullet in his head and she even had her like moment of closure with him before he died about it. So, you know, if she had her closure with him, she knows why he died. And he died, like why? By the time of the end of her journey, every one of her friends had died or left her. So was it really worth it in my opinion. And as she was going, she was so blinded by it. And I don't understand why. I mean,

Stephen:

that's a really good, quick analysis of the whole thing. They always say, you know, and I for, and I mix the whole world blind and everyone paid the price for revenge in this.

Steve:

Yes, for sure. So it was a good revenge tale though. And like I said, if you have the PlayStation four binge, and if you find it on a good sale, but getting into something that's, I've been job, I would say easily over 20 times.

Stephen:

Yeah. So. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. I see the vampires

Steve:

Slayer. That's what it is. We've we've already in the past in an episode, just kind of talking in general about how much we loved it, but in a recent, just rewatch, I was originally going to kind of go through the first season and do like a benching purge of which episodes to binge. And which ones to purge. And there was just so much to talk about in the pilot that I thought we just make it an episode. What about the pilot? Wonderful. Let's get into it. Welcome to the hell mouth aired on March 3rd of 1997. I, it was written by Josh Sweden and directed by Charles Martin Smith. And we're going to also be discussing it's second half the harvest, which aired March 10th, the following week that episode is directed by John T Kretschmer and written by just Sweden as well. IMDV summarizes it as when teen vampire Slayer Buffy tries to start her new life at Sunnydale high. She discovers the school sits at top a demonic dimensional portal.

Stephen:

As most high schools

Steve:

do. Yes. And that certainly is one of the, the metaphors that they kind of play with with the first three seasons, especially as the whole high school is held constant concept, but the entire idea of Buffy actually started in a movie written and directed by Josh Sweden. Yeah. And that you had seen it first.

Stephen:

I did, because that was my first. Introduction to it. Had a different actress. Sarah Michelle Gellar is much better as a person and an actress. And, but it had Luke Perry, it had Herman, it had Rutger Hauer, like it had a very talented cast

Steve:

and it was good to, okay. Okay. Movie, depending on who you ask, but it certainly isn't Buffy. And I watched it after watching Buffy the TV show. And so I was kinda like where's Buffy, like Buffy doesn't find vampires for period cramps. That's not how it works. Yeah. I

Stephen:

wonder why Johs got rid of that in between the movie and the TV show. You really?

Steve:

You wonder? Yeah,

Stephen:

because he made such a big deal out of

Steve:

it in the movie. I know, but maybe because someone finally was like, well, especially the WB who at the time, when, like in the pilot episode we'll get to it. But like when she says something about like, I'm a giant flood, like when she was picking out her clothes, like they had to fight for the word sweat. Like I doubt they would let something be about men straight and they wouldn't get period sex into crazy ex-girlfriend yeah. Well,

Stephen:

So, and also with as many vampires as she runs across, she would constantly be cramping. She would never be able to have sexy

Steve:

time with angel. No, no, no. So well, we'll get there eventually, but with this whole idea of the premise as well, this is something that I guess we'll kind of transition to Josh Sweden to let him kind of say from the audio commentary of the pilot episode the basis of the idea. Behind Buffy the vampire Slayer herself.

Joss on Buffy:

Oh, it's been a huge fan of horror movies. And, um, I saw so many horror movies where there was that blonde girl who would always get herself killed. I started feeling bad for her. I thought, you know, it's time. She had a chance to, you know, take back the night.

Steve:

And so I know that you and I have both love horror movies, but you were watching horror movies long before you watched the TV show. So I'm sure you're very familiar with the trope. The girl who doesn't make it, you know, the, the victim. Yes. If you see a girl walking down a dark alley at night, you think that she's going to be the victim dead, not the thing that, you know, people are afraid of. And so the idea of Buffy comes from that, but in this original wording, which was even recorded back in the day when, shortly around like season one to season three was recorded You could tell. Cause I mean like Josh was much younger, but the way that he worded it about the girl who gets herself killed is also an interesting turn of phrase though. In hindsight, especially with some of his more problematic things now, because you're

Stephen:

putting all of the blame on the victim at that point. And victim blaming is never.

Steve:

Okay. Folks never. So if you heard that in Ukraine now, I mean, you know, many parts of the show do age very well, but there are certain times where you'll be remembered like, Oh, the nineties was a different time or the arts was a different time.

Stephen:

Misogyny needs to go away.

Steve:

Yes. But we'll all be can't tackle that we can tackle the helmet with yes. Or at least Buffy Ken. And so for the first string of episodes, all start with this introduction of, there's one girl in all the world she alone. But I believe that later on in the episode, Buffy describes it a little bit better. So let's transition to that.

To reach generations. A Slayer is born one gun and all the wealth, the chosen one, one boom, with a stranger, you can scale down the vampires to stop this better. They're evil, blah, blah, blah. I've heard it.

Steve:

So what I like about that whole statement, but you know, it's also kind of catching the audience up. They do a great job of that throughout the pilot, but she's already established, he knows what's happening. The moment she steps foot into Sunnydale because she's been through this before in the movie and it

Stephen:

kind of, I know vampires are different than other things, but it's kind of very link legend of Zelda. Like this one, boy has the fate of the entire world thrust upon him, whether he wants to or not, because he's the chosen one. She's the chosen one. Like I've always seen that connection where. Just that protagonist that whether they want it or not has to bear the weight

Steve:

of that on their shoulders. Oh yeah. I mean, even playing video games through like the super Nintendo system, every RPG starts with, you know, a simple boy living in a simple village or a simple girl, or, you know, who am I kidding? It was, it's always a boy back then. Now we're getting great gains with strong female protagonists. But back then it was like every boy wakes up in the village and had a normal life until. You know, a princess or a monster or something happens that, you know, he's the only one that can fix it or save it. But in this case, it's Buffy, but before we even actually get to meet Buffy herself, we meet another strong, powerful woman Darla made by the beautiful and wonderful Julie Benz.

Stephen:

And like, so they're walking through the school and they've broken in and it's a group of people and you know, the you've got one guy that's like, you know, should we really be here and talking about that and. You're thinking of something is going to happen to this blonde girl, because that's what we're used to is a woman being the victim. Yeah.

Steve:

And I mean, we, we see him getting clear warning signs, you know, and she's playing very quite like, Oh, you know, is it safe? Here is anyone around? And, you know, we know that she's asking because she's guns random, dead, but you know, he is trying to get like, it's nothing, baby. It's really cool. So he seeming really sketchy himself, but that's just his misogyny. Yeah.

Stephen:

Then when she turns around and she has family

Steve:

yes. And bites him. It's a civil rights for everyone. That first time I love

Stephen:

the character of Darla and Julie bins is so fantastic in the show. And it's interesting to see how great she is here. And then later she is the CoStar of Dexter for the first four seasons. And I didn't actually like her. In Dexter until spoiler alert, jump ahead. 30 seconds. She's dead. And then I was like, Oh God. Now I miss her character from Dexter. I didn't appreciate her until she was gone there.

Steve:

No, I've, I've always been a big fan of hers. I mean, especially because. You know, she had another brief one episode stint in Buffy, but over an angel, she had two whole arcs. Yeah. And was just brilliant in both of them. So, you know, as also goes to show that, especially with Jess, you know, while he might be problematic, when he finds good people to work with, he has them come back and like all of his projects and like make sure that they have careers as long as he's giving workout.

Stephen:

Oh, but yeah, Darla Julie Benz a plus. And it's a great way to introduce the show and automatically turns it on its head of this. Isn't what you thought it was going to be. Yes.

Steve:

And meanwhile, something you didn't think it was going to be, you have the opening credits by nerve herder. And so it starts off with, you know, a Wolf howling and this classic kind of typical Oregon music for like two or three notes. And then it goes into this, you know, Rock theme. And it's why do you enjoy the theme? I

Stephen:

love, I enjoy it because the first time we were watching through it, If you were standing up walking through the living room, heading to the kitchen, or back from the bathroom, you had a dance to it. And it was the same every time. So it made me think that you had not just created that dance for me. No,

Steve:

I created it specifically for you. And I didn't even realize it was the single dance every time. Cause I just like flame my legs and arms around manically. Yeah. It was

Stephen:

amazing. And it just made going through. Are my first watch of Buffy

Steve:

even better. I know that there were some nights where I have a feeling that like, if you were on the fence or a little tired, I was like, one more episode. You would only say yes, because you were getting the dance. At least that's true as well. Yes. But I also like it because interesting story story for fans, the, they were having a real trouble finding the right theme and it was actually introduced to the show by Alyson Hannigan, the actress that plays Willow.

Stephen:

I love Alyson

Steve:

Hannigan, and she is one of the main people in the opening credits. So do you want to give you some of your thoughts on Willow as an Alyson Hannigan this role? Cause this is her main flagship role that she started her career with. Yes, because he did like, she did stuff when she was little.

Stephen:

But this is her for American pie. This is before how I met your mother. So this is what really introduced people to us. Willow seems very unassuming when you first meet her, she's the typical geek girl stereotype that they try to put out there, especially in the nineties. She's incredibly nice. Always wanting to help out. But the thing that I loved about Willow is that she's genuine. And I think that is what goes beyond the usual stereotype and trope. Is that she's so heartfelt and genuine, you can't help, but like Willow.

Steve:

Oh yeah. And like her face can sell any, anything, but especially those moments you know, even from the first episode and, you know, according makes that, you know, Oh, softer side of Sears comment and, you know, snubs or incense or off, you know, that, that look of pain on her eyes. Like we all hurt when Alyson Hannigan hurts. And so, you know, I can't imagine anyone else in the role, which is funny because in the original pilot. She was not the original actress. And that was one of the bigger things that you notice between the two, besides the length I was, you know, significantly shorter. But I can't imagine anyone else in that role, but, well, when she ends up becoming one of the most well-developed characters with like the arc throughout the seven seasons ups and downs,

Stephen:

she goes through besides Buffy, I think she goes through more than anybody else.

Steve:

Yes, she certainly does. And it was actually a struggle though with the F during the first season to really find her sense of style and purpose. And the show, the WB actually told Jace at one point that he wanted after like watching the, the very first pilot, they said they wanted her to be more like Buffy. And just as like, I don't think you understand that the concept of the character like Willow or like the nerdy best friend, if the nerdy best friend is more like the protagonist, then. You have to pretend then you have to protagonist. And so he kind of pushed on it and the kind of deal was to tone back her wardrobes. So over the first couple of episodes, her wardrobe does scale back from, you know, full-on, you know, my mom dresses me to kind of nerdy chic, like if you were like nerdy, but you did have that sense of fashion. That's kind of what she turns into rather than just, you know, say at fashion

Stephen:

and one of the other. Immediate friends were interested into

Steve:

introduced to introduce.

Stephen:

Thank you. I couldn't think of the word introduced words are hard. We are immediately introduced to Zander.

Steve:

Yes. Or as many of the, the fans know that th the Josh Sweden standing character.

Stephen:

Oh, that's a lot more sad whenever you like, really start thinking about that.

Yeah.

Steve:

You've never put that into, or have I ever gone off on that for

Stephen:

you? You might have, but now I'm like, Oh, Hey, how does John see himself and be, Oh,

Steve:

he saw himself as the way to Sandra had charming and like a little rascal just gets himself into trouble sometimes. And

Stephen:

the problem with Zander is that he's entirely problematic for awhile too.

Steve:

He does, certainly does have his issues until I would say much later in the show, like season five, four to five maybe is when he starts kind of being more of like the heart. Archetype at times, except to Anya poor on, he treats her like garbage. Well, I

Stephen:

think he starts getting a little better too after the Halloween dress up episode. Yeah.

Steve:

Yes. But we are getting way ahead

Stephen:

of ourselves. Like he's a bumbling idiot that has the hots for Buffy right

Steve:

away. Like they meet and it's, you know, in the hallway and you know, I didn't find

Stephen:

him endearing. From the get-go the way I immediately liked Willow. The only thing that drew me to liking Zander is that Willow like sander and thinks of him as their best friends.

Steve:

Yes. I mean, I actually have quite the history together. Oh, well, let's let let here Willow. Explain it best for us. Yes.

I thought Zanda was going to show up. Oh, are you guys going out? No, we're just friends. We used to go out, but okay. How come he stole my Barbie? Oh, we were five.

Steve:

So, yes, they dated for a little while, but then he stole her. Yeah. And

Stephen:

that seems very on brand for Zander too. I

Steve:

also think something that helps Andrew, especially in the first two episodes. I mean, you know, while he is just like a little bit nerdy and clearly like fumbling and bumbling over his, you know, attractive draw to. To Buffy is that he is more likable. I think then his friend, Jesse and Jesse were made to believe during that first episode or so that he's going to be part of the gang. That's going to be the four of them, you know, being in this group. Jesse

Stephen:

definitely seems smarter than.

Steve:

Sandra though. Yeah, not smart enough to make it through the first episode alive though, because that was one big thing where Josh even wanted to go so far as to put him in the opening credits until the WB told them how much time, energy that would and money that would take. But he wanted to just to kind of show you that no one's safe because like right off the bat in the first two episodes, someone who's Andrew and Willow who have apparently been friends with forever dies. I mean, of course after those first two episodes, you know, it's Jessie who we have no PTSD over our friend dying or Zander having to kill his friend, but yes, rest in peace, Jesse. But he certainly was the first of many people during that first season that you you know, assumed would be safe, but wasn't principal flute. He's another one who didn't even make it past tax.

Stephen:

Well, and that's one of the things I think about is Would things have gone down differently leading up to graduation if Flutie had been there and instead of. The other principal.

Steve:

Yes. And I know with principal Snyder, he, he, you know, was basically in the mayor's pocket, whether he knew what he was being in the pocket of or not, and eventually ended up in the mirror scholar for four.

Stephen:

So, yeah, but let's go back to my favorite character. Court Delia.

Steve:

Yes. Courtney is first entrance used to Buffy during history class. You know, it's history class, because they're talking about the fun part of it, the black plague. Yeah. And, and, you know, and I love the wording of that, but also then they say, say the fun part is that the black plague was actually created or from an early form of germ warfare. Which I did not know, but I fact checked and it is correct,

Stephen:

which that just boggles my mind. It's like, we didn't learn anything.

Steve:

I know. I'm just, it's like, I'm hoping like years and years from now, they're not like COVID was created in a lab. I mean, I'm sure they're already conspiracy theorist thinking that now they're but I mean, if it were to find out that it was true, a decade later, it'd be just wild.

So

Stephen:

Courtney is another one that. Grows over time. She absolutely starts off as the mean girl

Steve:

stereotype. Yeah. Even back then in the day, I didn't really understand her coolness factor quiz. So certain questions from this, and maybe you can help me. Maybe you can Who is James Spader, James

Stephen:

Spader. So back then there was a movie called sex lies and videotape. That was an, when I say adult, I mean, for adults, not porn. Yeah. It was an adult film that was very sexy for its time. And he was also in some of the other nineties movies leading or the late eighties movies leading up to that and like, He was kind of like an intellectual heartthrob. He does not look like that anymore. I just looked

Steve:

at, I had this face of disgust, which it might be why you were sitting there. I was like, not anymore. No.

Stephen:

He Gained a lot of weight. He looks kind of like William Shatner now.

Steve:

But yeah, everyone has a type don't want to yuck your yum. Yes. But back in the day he was, I can see why he would be a heartthrob back in the day that the big eighties meet late lead hair.

Stephen:

Yeah. But sex lies and videotape, I believe with Andy McDowell. Is the most likely, the reason that Cordy added him to the cooler, not quick.

Steve:

Gotcha. Frappuccinos, of course. I know. And those did hold up the test of time and they're delicious. Yes.

Stephen:

And she, but the only reason she wants to be friends with Buffy is because Buffy is new. And new girls automatically have a coolness quotient about them because there's mystery and

things.

Steve:

So she's from hemery, which is right by LA. And Courtney mentioned in the, in that first conversation, she always wanted to move to LA well,

Stephen:

good luck girl. She gets her wish she does get her wish she does, but I think she has incredible growth over the two series and. She becomes. A really well-rounded character that doesn't totally forget her origins either. Like the main girl is still there, even when she's doing things for the right

Steve:

reasons. Yeah. Cause she, I mean, she has moments where she takes it, like and uses it in the fight against evil and it's awesome. Yes. But yeah, I mean, I love, I mean, that's one thing that all of these characters have growth for. I mean, even Giles who you consider, you know, like. Fuddy-duddy you know, teacher mentor figure at first ends up having so much more depth than when you first meet him.

Stephen:

Giles was one of those characters that I liked from the beginning.

Steve:

Tony head is brilliant. Yeah. I,

Stephen:

his character just like Willow and Cordy, I think he knew exactly. Who Giles was during the filming of the pilot. And it comes through just like, I think Courtney and Willow both knew who they really were and that authenticity. Can drill you in.

Steve:

Yes. I mean, certainly, I mean, I think he was one of the first ones he cast cause just said like everyone else who came, you know, it was reading it like an old English librarian and that Tony had kind of brought this like little bit of like sexiness that they get into later with, you know, him being, you know, ripper in the past. Well, and

Stephen:

yeah, it kind of reads as if. One of the Beatles decided to take up being a watcher.

Steve:

Yes. Now one thing I also, during her exchange with Cordy that she mentioned that they don't have a lot of town and later on, even Zandra says there a one Starbucks town, there's a lot of talk in the beginning about how small Sunnydale is. So after watching all seven seasons, yeah.

Stephen:

It's not at all because of how long it takes to get places, all the things that they have. I come from a small town. Yeah. We didn't have a Starbucks. Do you have a college campus? We did not have a college campus. We have an airport. We did not

Steve:

have an airport. Did you have like a huge stocking Bay work? Like ships came in and out of,

Stephen:

we did not have a beach where all the high school kids could go to party. We didn't have a

Steve:

mall like that. I was like giant, giant mall.

Stephen:

Also didn't have a club for high schoolers to go to every night. So. I'm going to say sunny Dale is not

Steve:

small. Yeah. I think it's, you know, maybe every kid thinks that they grew up in a small town when they want to, you know, have big dreams, but I'm sure

Stephen:

the people that are here in Sarasota, like, Oh, I grew up in the small town of Sarasota. I'm like

Steve:

girl. Yeah. And I mean, not to mention that for such a, I mean, even for a ton of its size, they do have, I think what a dozen graveyards, 13 graveyards, they have a whole book. Yes they do.

Stephen:

Well, I think that all goes back to. The hell mouth.

Steve:

Yes. Now when Buffy Giles first meet, it is a bit very brief scene where he pretty much scares to right away because he whips out the vampire book right away and she was just coming for her textbooks, but she quickly finds herself going back to get help because she, there you find a dead body in the locker room.

Stephen:

Which you are want to do.

Steve:

Yeah. Yes. I mean, it's, the girl is always known for that, that scream before the cut to credits. But one thing I only caught actually on my last play through is R I might've seen it before, but as they're kind of bits talking to each other in the locker room, they're like, have you heard about that new girl Buffy? You know, what a ridiculous name? And then another girl walks by and she goes, Hey, aphrodisia. So that same girl, and I had never caught that before, but I'm like, that's brilliant because I mean, that's a girls with names like that do to each other. But then, you know, she goes to see Giles over the dead body and it gives them more of that exposition, like we showed earlier about the scene. But what do you think about that scene and how Buffy and Giles interact? What kind of right from the start?

Stephen:

I it's, it all goes back to. Somebody that doesn't want the responsibility. She's had this thrust on her. You know, it's a once in a generation thing that happens being the Slayer, she doesn't want to be, she wants to be normal. She just wants to go to school. She had to deal with this at her last school and she wanted a fresh start for herself here.

Steve:

Yeah. I mean, I can certainly understand it. And it was so understanding to the point that Sarah Michelle Gellar originally, actually, when she played through the scene, she went to Joss afterwards and said, I think I might've been like a tad bit too angry there. Like it just, it's something didn't seem right. You know, I know I'm supposed to be upset, but it was like, I was furious. And later on, when he went back and rewatched the scene, he agreed. So they actually that scene from Buffy's POV. In all the still shots where you only see her were shot about eight months after Giles aside after the entire first season was already shot as one of the last things they shot for the season. Well,

Stephen:

it was edited together brilliantly

Steve:

because he can't tell well you know, even knowing that when I'm watching the commentary and the rewatching it with you, I was like looking for it and I couldn't have seen it. So they did a great job, but he said that that's something that she's perfect at. You were talking even yesterday in the car about accurate actors or actresses, like when they. Eat something or I think it was on the podcast where they were like, when you eat something in a, when you're acting, how, if you mess up that senior, you might have to do eat that thing like a million times. So

Stephen:

I like, I did a lot of plays and there were things where Especially if they call for you to do it in the scene and you're just doing it again and again

Steve:

and again, and it has to match every single time. And he always said like, you know, she was always great with that with all of her actions, but I can imagine with food, it just, that's why you see so many times, like they're sipping or like nibbling. They're not like eating like birds in there. It's because they're going to be having to eat that one chip over and over and over and over again.

Stephen:

But it does annoy me whenever you watch things in someone. Takes a drink from something and you know, that they didn't tip the bottle or the cup enough to actually get

Steve:

any liquid in. They have to at least be able to sell it. But yes. I think that overall, it came out great and certainly kind of helps set the stage, you know, their, their relationship at this time. They don't know each other yet the way that they will later. So the warmness certainly grows, but you know, right from the start, you can tell that even though he has no idea what he's doing, like he's a brand new watcher. He does still care about her well-being and want her to. Succeed so much. So he follows her, the Bronx.

Stephen:

Well, you know, there's a character that we haven't mentioned yet that I don't like in the beginning and I grow to like her a whole bunch over time. And that would be Buffy's mom,

Steve:

Joyce, Joyce. Well, that's because in the first season or two, she's not really much of a character so much as she is, you know, a conflict vending machine and she's.

Stephen:

I don't know. I, I know that they're setting it up, that the first movie is quasi cannon and obviously she had to deal with a lot with the Buffy at the previous school and Buffy getting into trouble. But in some scenes it doesn't seem like she likes her daughter very

Steve:

much. And that's what I think she was missing at first with the warmth. And, you know, it comes down, it comes eventually with the character. But at first it was pretty much, you know, the first time you see her, she's like, You know, even the car in the parking lot, she's like, don't get kicked out again. And, you know, even with, you know, going out, she's like, Oh, you can't go out because you just can't go out. And that's why I'm going to tell you. But she did go out. Oh yeah.

Stephen:

They always go to the bronze. As I said, I bar for high school kids that is a money loser from the word go. They never pay a cover. They can't buy alcoholic drinks, which means that you can't charge $10 for a diet Coke. So

Steve:

they come in are mostly

Stephen:

local. Yeah. Like the person that owns the bronze. Is just using it as a tax, write off as the only thing I can come

Steve:

up with. I, I can certainly imagine, but on the way to the bronze Buffy actually runs into another character. We haven't mentioned angel. And so Angela in this pilot you know, plays more of like the dark, mysterious character,

Stephen:

dark and handsome mysterious

Steve:

man I'll call me and he gets her across and Pretty much anyone who watched Buffy after season two came out and knew about angel and knew he was a vampire. But Josh even like wrote it, thinking it was pretty much obvious from the start, but the viewers apparently were shocked in episode seven when angel was the vampire. And I, you know, you can obviously see it right from the start. I think you can. But the whole idea is like, he gives her the cross in a container, like a container. Cause he didn't have to touch it. But the whole idea was like, well, yeah, he gave him her cross. So of course he's fine. He's not. And is he, is the vampire with a soul? I think we're both teams spike or a team spiffy. Yeah.

Stephen:

I like, I. Liked angel for season. I liked angel until and jealous. He never came back for me in terms of Buffy and angel together. I couldn't like by the time it was time for him to go as I'm jealous at the end of that season. I didn't care. I know that it wrecks you every time at, by that point, he had crossed too many lines and I just didn't

Steve:

care. And it wrecks me for what it did for, with Buffy. Cause I mean, If angel didn't come back after season two. And the only reason why I came back for season three was so he can get his own show after this, which I love. And I

Stephen:

love the angel of the angel

Steve:

TV. Yes. Because they are like different characters there. They almost are established and immense in season three. Like, and

Stephen:

he's, I like him so much better. Like that's an angel I can get behind. Well,

Steve:

this was also, I think his David's for his acting gigs.

Stephen:

So. This is he's on his third long-term television show right now.

Steve:

He and Alyson Hannigan, both can't find a failure. Yeah. And

Stephen:

he does he ages extraordinarily well,

Steve:

narrowly? Well, I mean, nowadays I think he looks better than he did in season four of angel.

Stephen:

Oh, the whole time he was on bones, I was like,

Steve:

Daddy. He looks,

Stephen:

he looks better than he did on angel and Buffy,

Steve:

but he was also really, really young too. I think he was like 18 or 19, like really, really young because

Stephen:

he

Steve:

presents much older. Like,

Stephen:

well, no, I wouldn't. I thought it was like a nine Oh two one Oh, Luke Perry type of thing where he's like 28 to 30 now I think,

Steve:

cause you could tell like the way his body fills out though, like. With wise, but he does like fill out and like growth, but yes, he was the dark mysterious person that gives her the cross that ends up saving her at the end of the first episode. And then they go to the bronze, which I can tell that if you lived in that town, you'd just be there every single night having a blast. Well,

Stephen:

because at that point, you think that's the only thing to do until you realize. That you've got a mall and a beach and all those things, but back then, the bronze was the only place.

Steve:

Yes. And while Buffy gives Willow some Sage advice to go out and get some Buffy goes up to see Giles and they play a training exercise of spot, the vampire and Buffy does it by guessing the guy because of his fashion. And what does that speak to you? Well,

Stephen:

I mean, good job on her because he really. Did he look like he was from the late eighties and by this coming out at 97, like there's always some bleed through as fashions are ending. So if this had been 1990, one 92, and somebody was dressed like that, You could almost give it a pass, but 10 years later, that's why it's easy to spot. And I saw him and I was like, he does not belong.

Steve:

Yes. Yeah. But unfortunately, Willow did not pick that up and goes off with him.

Stephen:

Very Willow to not pick up on that context clue.

Steve:

Well, this is before she even knew about vampires and I mean, his name was Thomas and he was nice to her. She was just told to get some by Buffy and she's feeling brave and ambitious.

Stephen:

I wasn't exactly get some, it was go out there and, you know, find a boy and, you know, do something for

Steve:

yourself. Yes. And meanwhile, while Buffy then goes after to save Willow, we find Darla go off with Jesse. You had it coming. Yes, I know, but I mean, who could resist her in that little school girl dress in that weird hanging chair thing in the middle of the bar, which

Stephen:

I believe that this was also pre oops, I did it again. Yeah.

Steve:

Yes. Meanwhile underground, Luke, the vampire who's the protagonist kind of, of the first two episodes. Antagonist. I mean, yes, antagonism. He is bro. He's the antagonist or the baby big, bad of those two episodes raises the big bet of the season, the master from a pool of blood. Of course Josh Sweden wanted the master to literally rise out of a pool of blood, but they were like the prosthetics can't hold the actor then being under a pool of blood with some sort of tech for the effect let's just computer a CGI at. And I mean, you can tell it's CG, right?

Stephen:

And that's the, one of the things with Buffy whenever they use. Practical effects. It always looks better. It looks better because of the time that it was, because unless you had movie budget money, you couldn't pull off CGI to make it look. Really good. Like charmed did better than Buffy, but that was several years after like, you can see how the progression makes. So whenever Buffy sticks to just practical effects, it's bad. Yes.

Steve:

Like most of the time I think of, they don't do snake monsters very well, but yeah. Anyway Zander goes on to teasing, Buffy about thinking that she's the vampire Slayer, but then she realized that he realizes that how serious she is, because Willow's in danger. So Willa goes with the vampire to a crypt

Stephen:

and she starts figuring out something's wrong as they're taking this shortcut at, through a graveyard. And she's like, I don't think this is where we're supposed to be.

Steve:

I was gonna say you ever like take somewhere somewhere, like creepy to make out or sexy to make out where you were like, come here. And you were like not a normal place that you would think of. No,

Stephen:

cause that's not the way to seal the deal. That's not how you, like, if you want it all the workout, you don't get them to think, Oh my God, I'm about to be killed.

Steve:

Okay. I was like, I remember back when I was like in high school, like you had to like be sneaking around and stuff like I'd make out like anywhere that I could make out. So there was more than one star. It was like, you know, telling a guy like follow me into the woods. It's okay.

Stephen:

The woods is different, but like, Going through the graveyard. No, that's not how you get a teenager.

Steve:

I would have done that. Yeah. So, I mean, I probably would have gone willingly if there was the promise of, you know, something that might happen, but we're all impressed. You're still alive today. Yes, it is. Laura is the reason my best. How I made it through most of high school and college. Thank you, Laura. Yes. But then Buffy saves the group and they all start

Stephen:

running away to safety except

Steve:

except Luke steps in and in the first half of the episode. And a welcome to the helmet does end with him almost spiting her. While he's talking all churchy about how the harvest is coming.

Stephen:

Huh. Just coming and it is nice and creepy. And that's one of the things from the first episode where They really start laying the groundwork that something big is coming, something big is happening. And while it is related at first to just these first two episodes, it gives you a more grander scale that makes you think that something even bigger.

Steve:

Yes, because I mean, at the end of the first two episodes, you know that the master is all there and that he will try and rise again. But you know, in the meantime we find out in the harvest, which is very clear that like the second half of the same story Buffy's okay. Because angels saves her and she gets away.

Stephen:

Oh, thank goodness. He gave that to her.

Steve:

Yes. And so Giles then explains to the group how vampires were created, how it was, you know, one of the last demons on earth mixed their blood with a human. And so vampires were born and, you know, Josh explained during the commentary, how went. Courtney. It was to get all the basic important rules out upfront. And, you know, in hindsight, there is a very, there's a lot of exposition throughout the first two episodes about this is how it works. This is, you know, what later on when Buffy and Zander and tunnels and talking about the different ways to kill vampires, you know, they try and set all these rules right up front, which they do it in a very well-written way. But it does help because like you mentioned, like, you know, this way later on when like the rules do break, you know, it's a big deal. Like, you know, that. You know, down, you know, down the road, when we find out angel has a soul, you know, like that's a big deal. Cause vampires don't have souls. You know, when there's the gem of Amar where vampires can be staked and they don't die, it's like a big deal because you can, that's how you die. So the, you know, the rules were set right from the start. But speaking of heading into the sewers, that's when Buffy runs into angel. And so

Stephen:

why I know why, but tell our listeners why. The sewers are the best way to hunt for them because

Steve:

she can get anywhere during the day. Exactly.

Stephen:

The vampires can use the waterways under the city to go anywhere. They want to come up inside of almost any building and it's their own. Like subway system for vampires. And again, it makes perfect sense. And so that's a great way that that sets that up and they can use that as long or as much as they ever want to.

Steve:

Yeah. And I mean, sometimes they even get more creative than that, especially later on with like spike, throwing a blanket over his head and being able to run one in the first episode, like being out for one second kills you. Yeah. So they are a little flexible with it at times, but I, you know, I love that for story purposes. Of course. But then meanwhile, while there, you know, Buffy and Sandra are having this adventure, there was a scene that I loved with Willow and Cordy. Two of your favorites in the computer. Oh, you love it so much. I made huge joke.

Stephen:

Yes. Because I actually started thinking about it and it made me giggle and I was trying to stifle the giggle and it made me choke. So they're in there. And by this point, Willa was all in, on team Buffy. And Courtney has decided that the best thing she could do for her own popularity is to make up a story and tear Buffy down. And so she starts doing that. And while I was like, that's not true, Buffy's a good person. Buffy's my friend. And then they're trying to do this. Computer programming

Steve:

thing and computers back then make me LOL.

Stephen:

And they're like, Oh, We're almost done. What do we have to hit here? And Willow says, Oh, just hit, deliver and walks away. And Courtney looks around and she sees the button with D E L and she hits

Steve:

that. And if you found this podcast, you know, that, that made it all. Yeah. Which

Stephen:

so funny story that I don't think, you know, back in the eighties, whenever computers were first coming into people's homes. Mom and dad went to a computer class at our vocational center to like, learn about things and You know how nowadays, if you had control alt delete, it takes you to that menu. So you can stop products or lock your computer. Well, back then, that was the only thing control alt delete did was restart the computer. Okay. Unless you held it down. So the guy tells everyone, so what you want to do is hit control, delete, and before he can say, and then let up automatically, mom's just holding on to it. And back then, if you held control, delete you wiped the computer. Oh wow. So in her first computer class wiped, the computer

Steve:

of had a warning as well. I can't really blame her for it.

Stephen:

I know. And if he would have said, okay, I'm going to tell you to do something and I'm going to give you the instructions before you do it. And it's kind of similar to a story of a Christmas Eve community. And I'll tell

Steve:

you about some time. Good. Well, speaking of communion jumping ahead then, you know, Buffy gets grounded by Joyce, but she has to go out to stop the harvest. And she S you know, AB under her, she opens up this dresser with all of these, you know, girly items. There's like a diary and like Lacy things that whatever girls have. Things things, but then like you lift it up and it's, you know, communion, wafers and state water, Holy water, and all those other things. And th th they were talking about how it's like that, that big contrast of, you know, the normal life that you think you have being covered up by your secret life. And, you know, The imagery didn't do so much for me because I don't have lots of like little girl things that I recognized right away. You know, that is one of the first things that I can say that drew me to Buffy is the idea of having to have that one facade on the outside while having to keep your secret on the inside. I think

Stephen:

all gays

Steve:

can associate with that. Great. And so, you know, that's why this episode, I'm sure it's part of the reason why throughout the entire run, of course it gets more and more inclusive, but even from the get-go. That concept kind of drew me into it.

Stephen:

And also, as we've talked about before, Buffy is a strong female protagonist,

Steve:

how we typically have them. Yes. And I mean, Willow is one of the first and best like lesbian characters that wasn't just like a lesbian kiss for an episode stint a recurring like prime time show. And so, you know, Tara was the best of us. She was okay. Yes. Okay. Find that. But you know, they're, they're going to stop the harvest and it's because of this whole big science-y explanation. Do you want to try and explain how the harvest worked with the master, trying to use Luke as the vessel for the cork and the thing, or do you, do you want to know that the secret,

Stephen:

like it was this whole, like, I'm going to. Psychically bond with the master. Whatever happens to me, happens to him. So if I drain enough people, it will give him enough life and he can break out of his spell. Area and walk the earth and destroy all of

Steve:

humanity, because the reason why he stuck underground is cause he was like a cork in the, in a bottle trying to get out. But when trying to write that part of the script Josh and David Greenwalt, who was like another huge main writer on the show David Greenwalt just shout it out for God's sakes. Don't touch the flip flop button. I'm in GRC. And so it's all made up stuff, but phlebotomy then became his fake word or like to use for the reason of the thing of the week that solves the problem. And so like for this one, you know, that's the science-y explanation or the occult explanation or the, you know, the random thing always is like, Oh, you know the phlebotomy. So I think that that's like now a funny, like, you know, word you can use to be like that. I made that up. It's just a matter of phlebotomy.

Stephen:

But of course the harvest being the most important thing that can possibly happen. For demons and it needs to happen in a really special and important place that, you know, I mean, it's almost like a ritual. So where would you do it if you were going to a vampire?

Steve:

According to the standard, the bronze of course, that's

Stephen:

it, it needs to be the

Steve:

bra. Yes, because I mean, at the time I think that was the only place in Sunnydale or at least the only set they had built. They didn't know that they had all these airports and toxins go. So,

Stephen:

I mean, it does make sense. If you wanted a group of people with strong or as in souls, because they're teenagers, they're going to be at the peak of their youth and strength and they're in a closed in space.

Steve:

It isn't an abandoned warehouse. So it is very easy to lock all the

Stephen:

entrance. And there's not going to be that many because. Anybody that's been into a bar. There's usually two entrances. The one you came in and the one the staff comes. Yes,

Steve:

exactly. So they go, but before the whole gang goes in, I also think it's funny that Giles Giles does say to Zander, you know, remember when you're looking at Jesse, he's not your friend, he's the thing that killed him. But. You know, after watching the whole series, like, is that how being turned into a vampire or works for everyone?

Stephen:

No, because I don't, and I it's one of those things that I bet you, if Josh could go back and rewrite lines back then, because it's not like this child's first time with vampires to be a watcher, you have to be experienced with it. And maybe his experience with. Buffy and her group changes how he looks at vampires in general, but I would be interested to see if Joss would go back and rewrite that line or just take it.

Steve:

Yeah. And I mean, I, because he States as a fact, I, you know, I think that that's how it's intended. Of course, the way that I could head candidate now is like, this is Giles fresh out of the Watchers school, where the. The wa the Watchers council, we have eventually find out as like the worst patriarchy example ever. You know, they basically create this entire Slayer system so they can kill them on their 16th birthday so that they can get a newer, fresher, younger model. And so, you know, with that going on, or yeah, 16 or 18, but yeah, 16, but with that. They're not the best organization. And so they've probably been feeding him that line, his entire life, that it changes that it does just make you a monster. But I think we see real quickly with future vampires. Other than AngelList, who pretty much through the same way when he turns into Amy and jealous instead of angel, he's a completely different person. Yeah. In a way that like you don't see with spike or even with harmony, when harmony transforms into a vampire, she's basically vampire human harmony in the most fabulous, awesome way. And when

Stephen:

spike gets his soul later on, it's not like all the things that I love about spike go away. He is nicer and does things for good reasons, but the snark and. The other things are all still there. It's the angel losing is still where he is just not even anything close to angel

Steve:

anymore are somewhat inconsistent, but I, I do.

Stephen:

And I know that they had to do that. Story-wise because they needed that big shock.

Steve:

I needed to enter to kill him, which was like a big character moment for like that one episode for sander.

Stephen:

I would to the harvest. Yes. And so they're all at the bronze everybody's locked in. Our heroes are finding a way to get in the vampires are starting to. Drain the high schoolers. Yes. And a fight

Steve:

ensues and Willow kills Darla. No,

Stephen:

she doesn't. I watched that episode.

Steve:

I know if you had read the original version of the script, that's exactly how it happened. It was only later in the actual filming that the last moment they decided to have the Holy water, just burn Darla and have her run off. Because that was around the time that Joss was writing episode seven, they were seeing how great Julie Benz was to work with. And so they decided to invite her back. And she said, of course, so that she could be his sire in episode seven. So that was a very last minute change. But I mean, I love it for her because yeah. You know, I do feel bad that it kind of took away Willow's first kill for like a long time. But, you know, in hindsight it would've been bad-ass if like, you know, all three of the, you know, the core, main characters all had to kill in the first episode. But I do like that Darla comes back to fight another day and bite another day, Jesse, luckily does not.

Stephen:

Yeah. And no offense to the actor that plays Jesse. There's something about it. I've never liked him in any role he's ever

Steve:

been in. He has that, that, that smarmy in a bad way.

Stephen:

Yeah, he was on 24. I didn't like him on 24. I don't like him here. I was not sad to see him go. Yeah, I

Steve:

just went, I rewatched these episodes. I just wish that some point over the seven seasons, like it didn't even need to be right away. But, you know, with all of these things that people like need to have therapy for like call back to Zander, never mentioned that. Like after this, that he killed his best friend or like killed the vampire version of his best friend. Like you can tell some textually that that's pretty much why he hates vampires so much and why he has this thing with angel right. From the start. You know, it makes sense. And just like the Buffy competition thing, but, you know, I can certainly see how like, Underneath the dialogue where it affected him, but in terms of written dialogue, he never acknowledged his Jessie effort. Again, you know, at

Stephen:

prom, my favorite episode, they could have had a, like a wall of remembrance and had Jesse's picture up there with some of the other kids that have been killed

Steve:

off over three seasons. He would've had to pay that douchebag. Yeah, but it's not that bad, but yes. The way that Buffy ends up saving the day is using the telling Luke it's sunlight. And then kind of

Stephen:

like from Hocus Pocus whenever they use the car light. Yep.

Steve:

So she throws the thing and says, you know, you forgot about sunlight or sunrise and he like ducks and covers, and it gives you the chance to stab him in the back with a steak, because it was just a light from the parking lot.

Stephen:

And. Like the fight didn't seem like it lasted that long. And obviously all the kids went there at like 9:00 PM. So it's definitely not 7:00 AM.

Steve:

I know, but I mean, you know, he was like the big strong guy, so they're not stereotypically smart either. Yeah, she's like it's in about nine hours and moron

Stephen:

and of course immediately everyone explains it all away. Even Courtney, who was just about to be drained and killed. Explains it all the way and says, Oh, I heard it was just some rival

Steve:

gangs. Yeah. But before we get into that one thing I love about the, one of the last shots in the bronze is that textually, you know, not only did it let a vampires die, but a bunch of humans did, or at least a handful of humans, did you don't see a single body on the ground of the bronze at the end? Well,

Stephen:

Did anybody die on the ground? Because I thought everybody died up on stage

Steve:

that died. Bouncer died on stage. Yeah. But they said that they didn't want to leave bodies lying around after a fight human or vampire, but that is why vampires get dusted so that they never leave a body so that it doesn't look like Buffy is leading this trail of bodies in her awake. It's the same reason why they have vamp face while a lot of times in like other forms of media with vampires, they might just have like the little teeth poke out, like in true blood where it's all sexy. But they just said it like, you know, it was important conceptually and for like plot reasons and getting it approved for cable as well that, you know, it wasn't this high school girl killing what looked like other high school students or other young adults that it was, you know, clearly they were demons when she was. Fighting them. And then the poof makes it also easier so that you're not leaving bodies around. So I think that that was just a great way to set it up. You know, a lot of the things from the show that kind of set up the great formula for it going forward. But it is wild that then you get to the fact that one way that they can also keep this kind of cycle going, is that nobody remembers what's right in front of well, and

Stephen:

I'm the human brain. Likes to rationalize things away that it doesn't understand.

Steve:

Well, this goes to an extreme though, and they did say it was rival gangs, fighting for turf. Yeah. And so recently, and I have to give credits to buffering because I got the idea from the, their recent episode of the invisible Depok discussion. But I never saw even the idea of, you know, problematic that's like rival gangs. Like they blamed the gangs for all the violence. But also just the idea that, you know, while I was drawn to it for, you know, my secret of my sexuality and the one, you know, guy when all the world with the secret and, you know, I didn't know anyone else like me and felt so alone and ashamed that a lot of people of color oftentimes were drawn to it because it is this core group of people that are unique. And they are the only ones who can see the evil around them in the world. That's happening. If they were to tell anyone about it, That they would think you were crazy. You know, just that, that whole line of thinking. And as you know of why that they might relate to it because that's, you know, their struggle, you know, we, we both oftentimes, you know, LGBT and BiPAP and, you know, we hope typically co-exist peacefully. I know that we, we are from advocates on, you know, for everyone and equality all around. But you know, I can S I never saw it that way, but I can see how that could be something that would draw people to it. Cause that is a theme that goes on throughout the show. And

Stephen:

I also, the rival gangs thing. If you looked at the students of Sunnydale. Yeah. They're all white. They're all white. So the rival gangs, it just made me think of white gangs. I didn't go to minorities with that because It was more like Greece. Like if they were going to be gangs, it would be like in Greece,

Steve:

you don't know if it would be like Greece because you never saw the movie. I've seen the play. I know, but you need to see the movie. That's going to be something on our to-do list. Okay. But yes, what I do love about that is it does set up the fact that they can just keep on fighting another day. And I love the one of the last, you know, the ways the episode ends with all of them talking about. How they're going to just go and have fun and so that kind of leads to Giles.

Buffy Clip:

Well, I got to look on the bright side. Maybe I can still get kicked out of school. Oh yeah. That's the plan because lot of schools are not helmets. Maybe you could blow something up. They're really strict.

Stephen:

I don't think anybody's had to deal with a Slayer. Like Buffy before?

Steve:

No, certainly not. I mean, there were other slayers that come after her that can also give a watch or their run for their money. But you know, it's, it certainly was. I, I mean, I loved the pilot. I think that it holds up great today. I

Stephen:

actually watched the pilot the day that it aired back in the day. I never saw the harvest episode. I can't believe I don't know what didn't happen, but I know I never watched it. I watched the pilot because, and I think part of it had to deal with This is nothing like the movie.

Steve:

Yeah. And it wasn't. Yeah, I think like the movie, but I do find that the long-term that worked out great. Yes, I agree. But to wrap up, I mean, with the, with the plot for my longtime longtime Slayer friends who really love the lore I did also find something interesting while I was doing my research for the episode. Two slayers are mentioned in this episode, which is rare. They often don't talk a lot about Buffy's history later on it wasn't until season. Five, where we had fool for love were spike talks about his experience, killing his two sliders. But other than that, it's very rare for them to mention other slayers canonically. But they mentioned here a Slayer who died in Chicago. And I actually from cannon outside of the TV show from the history of the Slayer. We know that this, while she never got a name, she did die stopping a series of murders, presumably vampire attacks which claimed the lives of 41 people around the United States. Good for her. Yes, she did not get half the screen time that the already named one, though, they do mention Lucy Hanover and she ends up being a huge deal across a lot of the, a books that were written around the time by Christopher Golden, especially as well as other authors, but she was the Slayer in 1866, Virginia. And she's known as the Slayer that was active in the U S during the American civil war. So in addition to her being a civil war fighter, she also had battles with dark fairies. She killed the wander of the water and spirit remains on the ghost roads even after she died. So not only do they talk about her story and the history of the Slayer, but Buffy and even Willow at some point, like run into her throughout the books on like a spirit plan that kind of helped them fight big bads in the books.

Stephen:

If it weren't for the problematic aspects of highlighting slavery on television, doing a Slayer series set during civil war time would be really, really fascinating because, you know, by our time we've heard about things like zombies and vampires and stuff like that, you go far enough back where things are just. Not even folklore really. And you have some of these things happening that would be interesting to watch, but that's a bad period to highlight on television.

Steve:

Yeah. I mean, that's one thing a lot of these things though, since then, they've been doing a great job in the comics of kind of telling the history of other slayers even in the new series that they have going on through boom comics that you can get on comic psychology. They have a lot of the history of the Slayer. They have the history of the first Slayer. They have just so much more they have even in that the main Buffy boom reboot, they have Kendra's backstory, which was really cool. So I think that they've been doing a good job of telling the stories for a new generation and having them more thought out with this whole universe already existing.

Stephen:

Well, darling, to wrap it all up, what would you say about the first two episodes?

Steve:

They are awesome. And to keep on watching after that, there is a couple of slumps throughout the first season. Not everyone is great. Some have their social problematic aspects. While other ones just have, you know, poor CGI or not the greatest plots, but I would say if you can make it through the first season the second season on is like, Gold for the most part, except for Gulf go fish as well. But every season has their winners and losers, but overall, the show tells this amazing story that you don't see told across media commonly. And so it's worth checking out for anyone who loves pop culture. It's loved by everyone and they have like a million things still going on about it. For sure. Exactly.

Stephen:

It was a mid-season replacement show. And that in and of itself can be hard for developing TV because you have to make so many episodes ahead of time, and you have no idea how the fans are going to relate. Especially back then when the internet was just starting and message boards and things, weren't really a deal. So you couldn't have this automatic Twitter reception. So that's why you have. Shows like this that took a little longer to find its exact footing. Like you said, season two is above and beyond much, much better. And that is, I think. Because they don't have that feedback like you do now. Okay. And

Steve:

also, I mean, back then they didn't do serialized shows very often. It was extremely rare for primetime shows to not be just everyone being a monster of the week. And so they really focused for that

Stephen:

type of thing. I was going to say, I grew up watching serialized, nighttime shows like dynasty and Falcon crest, Melrose place, Dallas. Those were all serialized things. But whenever you start into. For teenagers, nine Oh two one Oh was the first real serialized thing for teens, but like. Whenever you were talking about murder of the week or crime of the week, those were not serialized. And so this was a big deal to have a show with that type of topic to become

Steve:

serialized. Yes. And I'm glad I did. I mean, like I could have kept it going forever and then keep gobbling it up. I mean, Sarah, Michelle Gellar, we didn't really talk about in the character intro as much as the other actors and actresses, but I mean, she's phenomenal. I mean, she is, she leads the show for a reason. She. It's so amazing. And some of the performances that she gives, there's so many great episodes ahead. So hopefully you found that this a great primer to get you into those first two episodes. If you've watched it all before, go back and rewatch it again on Hulu, and if you've never watched it and now you know that it's something you should definitely binge and check out. Yes.

Stephen:

And until next time stay

Steve:

happy.